Make EdTech 100 with LindyHoc

Welcome to Make EdTech 100.

I'm LindyHoc, educator, K-12
EdTech advisor, and your host.

This is a podcast where we keep it real
about what actually works in classrooms.

No hype, no overwhelm, just practical
strategies, honest stories, and

tools that make a real difference
for teachers and students.

So come along with me on a
journey to Make EdTech 100.

Today I'm talking with a
high school English teacher.

Per usual for Make Ed Tech
100, we cover a lot of ground.

We dig into the kids can't read, quote
unquote, narrative, and whether our

reading tests are actually measuring
the kind of reading kids do every day.

We also get into how she handles student
AI use in an AP English classroom.

She walks us through how she decides
whether tech in her classroom is

actually helping or just there for the
sake of being there, and we land on

a debate I get in my TikTok comment
section a lot, whether teaching kids

to use technology responsibly is even
a teacher's job in the first place.

This is episode nine in our ongoing Screen
Time series, so if you've been following

along, this episode fits right in.

If not, it also stands on its own

Lindy Hockenbary: Lisa Snow is
coming up on her 20-year anniversary

in the English Language Arts
classroom in Washington State.

And somewhere along the way, she
became the person her school and

district turned to for guidance
on AI, as well as teaching ELA.

She's a national board-certified
teacher, an ISTE-certified educator, and

she's led her district's AI principals
committee while also presenting on AI

to principals and teachers nationally.

Welcome, Lisa, to Make a Tech 100.

I named the podcast Make
EdTech 100 because the meaning

is open to interpretation.

Lisa Snow: Oh,

Lindy Hockenbary: we can get to
know you a little bit better, tell

us what does that mean to you?

Lisa Snow: I think of the top 10 lists
and, you know, kind of, you know,

ranking, but then I also think of,
like, my son is like cu super into

Pokémon Go, and when you get a hundo or
100 Pokémon it's the best stats ever.

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh, okay

Lisa Snow: it's like you get a
hundo, and everybody gets really

excited, and it's very rare.

So that kind of goes, you know, to
the gaming world a little bit as

well, I think, this idea of, like,
how we can kind of put tech in a

place that's maxing stats almost or,

Lindy Hockenbary: Hmm.

Lisa Snow: pushing, you know, our kids
or our students or our teaching, the

learning in our classrooms and our school
buildings kind of to that full stat level

as opposed to something that is just
d- draining or distracting or kind of

Lindy Hockenbary: Love it

Lisa Snow: problems, I guess.

Lindy Hockenbary: That's why I asked
that question because everybody always

has a different answer every time.

It's something different, how
they interpret this idea of

making it 100, and that is a new
one, the, the Pokemon element.

Love it.

You can tell you have an
11-year-old in your house.

Lisa Snow: I do, and he's,
he's a Poke-nerd in, in so

Lindy Hockenbary: Poke nerd.

Lisa Snow: He, he

Lindy Hockenbary: I

Lisa Snow: co-president of the
Pokemon club at his school.

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh my God,
they, I love that his school has

a Pokemon club, let alone that

Lisa Snow: and co-president.

Lindy Hockenbary: Wow, okay.

So he is very into Pokemon.

But

you know, I had an episode a few episodes
ago about game-based learning, and I

interviewed Jacqui Gardy and Dan Ryder,
and Jacqui made the really good point that

Pokemon cards are filled with reading, and
they emulate so much of the real world.

Learning how to interpret where to
find information on the card is very

similar to learning the layout of a
book, for example, or the layout of a

magazine or the layout of a newsletter.

I'd never thought of that before

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

Well, and I would say, too, English
teacher, so whenever I'm anywhere,

right, people figure out I'm an English
teacher, and then they have questions

about the state of kids reading in
the 21st century because, of course,

the thing we bemoan constantly is that

nobody

reads anymore.

And I'm like, "They read.

They just read different texts
than we're used to reading."

Like These kids can read a these

Lindy Hockenbary: Thank you for coming by.

Come on in

Lisa Snow: read a TikTok
video better than I have ever

Lindy Hockenbary: Yes

Lisa Snow: The nuance, the
detail, even just the way that

they read, like body language.

They're just a lot more visual in
their reading, like visual texts,

less linguistic texts in the same way.

But they can read… if they see an
Instagram post, they can read who's

tagged in the post, who's not tagged
in the post, like the social context.

They can read what's said in the caption,
what's in the hashtags, what's not in

the hashtags what pictures were selected
and what pictures weren't selected.

Is there a song?

Was there not a song, right?

These multimodal kind of things,
and they read those so well.

Their vibe understanding
of like image is insane.

Lindy Hockenbary: You're completely right.

That's such a Gen Z and Gen Alpha
thing, but yet older generations, they

look at it and they go, "It doesn't
look like it looked when we were their

age." They're not necessarily reading
out of a textbook or a physical book.

Maybe they're reading on the Kindle app
on their phone, or they have a Kindle,

or yeah, all the examples, TikTok video,
all the things that you just said.

It looks different, but
they're still reading.

And as you were saying that, I have
never thought of this before, but all

we hear about is test scores, right?

Test scores are down.

Kids can't read.

The amount of times I've been in
meetings over the last year, year

and a half, two years even, that I've
heard, "Oh, well, kids can't read.

Why are we doing that when kids can't
read?" And that's the catch-all phrase

for why formal education is failing.

Kids can't read.

I'm like, hey, I, I was just thinking,
I'm like, is the fact that our reading

test scores in general, of course,
stereotypically, like generalizing

across the board, are not as great as
we want them to be because we're having

them take these standardized tests that
look exactly the same and are testing

them on a different type of reading?

What's your thought on
that as an English teacher?

Lisa Snow: So I'm an AP teacher,
so I literally prepare my kids for

a standardized test every year.

But I'm also at a

Lindy Hockenbary: Okay.

Is that all you teach is AP?

Lisa Snow: Yeah,

Lindy Hockenbary: teach AP?

Oh,

Lisa Snow: I used to teach, so
I've taught pretty much every level

of English in the high school.

Ninth, both honors and what
we call CP, college prep.

When then I've taught
10th, both honors and CP.

I have taught 11th grade.

I've taught regular 12th grade,
honors 12th grade, AP Lit, AP Lang.

So I've kind of taught the gamut.

But right now, my teaching load is
about .2 or .4 in the classroom,

so I teach AP Lit. Next year I'm
teaching a .4 in AP Lit. And then

the rest of my FTE is in ed tech.

So I support the tea- yeah, I
support the teachers with platforms.

I do backend for our LMS.

I help with AI

Mm … and policy and kind
of leading initiatives.

I actually just got an
email from a student.

It's "Mrs.

Snow, I want an AI club.

Will you be my And I was like,

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh, that's great

Lisa Snow: me like reply to you
in a second when I have a breath

on my summer." But yeah, so

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah.

Lisa Snow: you know,

Lindy Hockenbary: But I love that
they're emailing you on their

summer break asking for a club too.

Lisa Snow: is

Lindy Hockenbary: says something

Lisa Snow: he's really
sweet and very into AI.

He was helping with the investing
club that I uh everyone that I would

sit and be the adult in the room for,
but I had no expertise in any way,

shape, or form in the investing club.

But they created their own game app,
and I think they used vibe coding

through AI platforms to help do that.

And so these kids are… it's amazing
to see what they can create, in order

to, to kind of do the things that
they're really interested in doing

even at the ninth and 10th grade level.

Yeah,

Lindy Hockenbary: Interesting

Lisa Snow: okay, so you were
asking me about standardized

Lindy Hockenbary: yeah.

So yeah, so you teach
AP English currently.

Lisa Snow: Yes, and so-

Lindy Hockenbary: your, whole job
is to prep them for that AP test

and to pass that AP test essentially

Lisa Snow: like about the AP test, I
mean, has their own questions about

AP and college in the high school,
and all of those kinds of questions.

I don't wanna get into that.

but what I like about the AP test
for English is that really it's not

about them knowing very detailed
facts or things that I have to

make sure that they've memorized.

It's about teaching them skills.

So I have to teach them to analyze
literature so I can… they can read

anything I want them to read to prep.

Because the test itself is more
about how you're reading and

analyzing what you're reading.

But it's all, it's all written text.

So it's all literature in that
kind of sense of, of fiction.

But when they take the test, they
have one essay that the kids can

pick any work of fiction that
they wanna use for that essay.

It's the Q3 on their
free response questions.

And it's really interesting as a
person who reads and scores the test

how many different texts the kids
select for their work of fiction.

there's just such a range.

There's video games that they pick
sometimes, memoir which isn't technically

a work of fiction, but it's creative.

They'll pick movies.

They'll pick television series.

They pick comic, manga.

They

Lindy Hockenbary: Anime.

I'm sure there's some anime in there

Lisa Snow: did have a YouTuber, one of

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh.

Lisa Snow: picked this year, which was I

Lindy Hockenbary: Okay

Lisa Snow: my favorite thing to read.

So you know, the kids kind of
pick the range for that one.

but it's not it's not what
the test is like saying.

They say work of fiction.

But the kids kind of pick
whatever they want on that.

So it's interesting to see what
the kids see as kind of works

that they feel confident enough
writing about, or excited about.

Lindy Hockenbary: yeah.

It's not necessarily a fiction novel,
which is what our brain thinks of as older

people when we hear a work of fiction.

It's a YouTube video.

It's a anime clip.

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

and some of the kids do a
really good job with, you know,

non-typical literature, right?

Things that are, are kind
of more wide-ranging, right?

Like We think of like comparable,
like the test used to say

comparable literary merit.

And because they give a list of novels
or plays that the kids could pick from.

But they don't have to use the list.

The list is just there to jog
their brains if they get stuck.

But it's interesting, the kids who pick
something they're passionate about,

they usually do pretty well in terms
of their ability to analyze and argue.

which is encouraging.

I like to see that because I'm like,
"Okay, here's a kid who's passionate about

something, who's thinking deeply about it,
who's trying to make claims and support

argument with evidence," which is exactly
what we want them to be able to do.

And they're using a text
that matters to them.

It doesn't matter to me if it's
like my jam this is about them

analyzing the text in their world.

And some video games have super
complicated, complex, really

interesting narrative arcs that think
could be classified as literary work

Lindy Hockenbary: Video
games and board games.

Lisa Snow: Mm-hmm

Lindy Hockenbary: complicated
board games out there.

My husband and I like to play board
games, and I have had to before,

and I'm a very strong reader.

I read the instructions of the board
game, and I have to go find a YouTube

video to interpret parts of it,

There's so many complex elements to the
strategy game that I, I can't comprehend

it just by reading, and I'm an adult

Lisa Snow: even simple ones
like we got in, we have some

friends who got us into Wingspan.

Have you ever played

Lindy Hockenbary: I love, I
have one of your favorites.

Lisa Snow: th-

Lindy Hockenbary: Very tons of reading

Lisa Snow: yeah, not super complicated
in terms of the narrative, but w-

it literally has a YouTube channel

Lindy Hockenbary: It, yes.

Actually, I

Lisa Snow: for its how-tos, and

Lindy Hockenbary: think Wingspan
was one of the ones that I had

to go watch a YouTube video
on to learn how to fully play

Lisa Snow: got it and started to try
to play the like tutorial version,

and we played it completely wrong.

I- full stop.

But then we played it with our friends who
had played it a lot, and they walked us

through it, and then we're like, "Okay,
yeah, we were playing this completely

wrong." But we really had a great time.

So then it, now we're a little
bit like, okay, we can kind of

start to think about the nuance
of it and the strategy around it.

But yeah, we had to play it a couple
times and with people who knew what they

were doing to really get heads around it
because the directions are so complicated.

Lindy Hockenbary: So complicated.

But that's another example of the
Wingspan cards are not as complicated

as a Pokemon card, I don't think,
but still pretty complicated.

There's a ton of information on that card.

And by the way, my middle niece She was
playing Wingspan with us when she was 10,

Lisa Snow: Ewan

Lindy Hockenbary: I would say

Lisa Snow: son plays it with
me, with us, and he loves it.

And he's all into the strategy.

You can see his little gaming
brain, you know, trying to figure

out how to get this, and he's got a
goal, and then when somebody messes

up his goal, he gets really mad.

But he's doing all the prioritizing,
which is really good for him, because as a

kid, he has ADHD, so EF skills are always
that kind of big thing with, with his

Lindy Hockenbary: Yep

Lisa Snow: of brain.

but this is like so many EF skills
in a game, and he is developing a lot

of that prioritization and pivoting
and flexibility and kind of all of

those pieces that, you know, he,
he needs to continue to develop.

Even a kid with a typical brain in,

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah

Lisa Snow: 11 is gonna have EF needs.

But, you know, you add onto that the
layer of like diverse attention kind of

Um

Lindy Hockenbary: sure

Lisa Snow: it's, it's,
you know, it's really fun.

But yeah, I mean, kids, kids are reading.

Lindy Hockenbary: Kids are reading.

Lisa Snow: am not a

Lindy Hockenbary: I love that

Lisa Snow: of state testing,
but I understand why we have it.

I'm in a private school,
so we don't have to use it.

Lindy Hockenbary: So yeah, so
you don't have the state testing,

but you do have your AP testing

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

I feel like we are testing reading in
a very limited manner, and I think they

need to be able to read words on a paper.

They do.

They need to be able to
use written language, yes.

I think one of the other things
that we did to some extent was

we focused within the last, what,
20-ish years, maybe 30, focused on

decoding and less on comprehension.

And I think the science of reading
is kind of pushing more towards that

comprehension end as well as decoding.

So I think some of it may also be a little
bit of that figuring out just because

they can sound out the words doesn't mean
that they're retaining the information.

And then just because they're, like,
reading by sight almost and, and

understanding the word by its shape
as opposed to its decoded phonemes,

I guess, doesn't mean that…

You know, they need both, and I, I
think sometimes the pendulum kind of

swings, and that may be part of why test
scores are looking the way they are.

But

Lindy Hockenbary: love that.

Something really important to think about.

our test scores, especially reading
test scores, could one reason they're

low be that w- they're outdated?

The way that we're testing is outdated and
not matching the world that Gen Z and Gen

Alpha learners are operating in every day.

I'm gonna take that with me.

It's, it's a really good thought.

I wanna kind of open the
window to your classroom.

Walk me through a typical
day in your classroom.

Like, if I were to walk into your
classroom on a typical Tuesday or

Wednesday, what, what would it look like?

What would you be doing?

What would students be doing?

Lisa Snow: Well also it depends
on, our schedule's kind of a

weirdly modified block schedule.

So I have some days where it's a
50-minute class period, and then some

days where it's a 70-minute class period.

In a 70-minute class period,
we're gonna do a little bit more

kind of project-y or like things
will be moving around a lot more.

In a 50-minute class period, we can
really do kind of one, core thing, and

then a warmup and kind of a wrap-up.

One of the things I noticed on the test
is that they were scared of poetry.

I don't know, I noticed this
seven or eight years ago.

just because the kids don't really
think about poetry as, something

that they see of every day, they
get really intimidated by it.

So we do a poetry warmup every week.

The kids both love and hate it.

So they they, on their course surveys,
they always tell me, they're like,

"I wanna do less poetry warmups."
What's the one thing that helped you

prepare for the test slash read better?

Poetry warmups.

it's the same kid will say that.

They're like, "I don't wanna do
them, but they help me the most."

Lindy Hockenbary: they, that's
such good self-reflection

though that they can see that.

That even though I didn't want to, I know
why we're doing it and that it helps me

Lisa Snow: And I do them
kinda two different ways.

So the, I feel like, think I got this
from the National Writing Project,

but they, at some National Council for
Teachers of English conference they

had a session on this thing called
unwriting, where basically they label,

using colors, pieces of poetry or
writing to kind of get a sense for

what's essential, what's the authorial
craft that's happening in the reading.

we do poetry warm-up using that, where
I have the kids mark punctuation that

stands out to them in red, and diction
or words that stand out to them,

either because they don't know them
and they have to look 'em up or because

they're weird or interesting or f-
forming some kind of pattern in green.

And they mark figurative language, so
similes, metaphors, imagery in blue,

and then something structural in purple.

and that can be s- like sentence
structure, poetic structure.

There's a lot of options there.

And then I have them do anything
else they find interesting

in orange, which is optional.

And then they have to kind of Use
something they marked to create kind of

a thematic statement that's rooted in
something the author chose to do, and we

do that every week with a different poem.

Then we also have a poetry warm-up
that's a little different style.

So that's for the kids who wanna
start in the weeds, in the details.

And then we have one where we work
the other side, where they start by

saying what's literally happening in
the poem, and then they try to identify

the speaker of the poem, and then they
work towards that thematic statement.

So starting kind of at a more macro
level, and then we have a micro option.

So we usually start with that, so
we read poetry every day and we

do something with it every day.

And those tasks can be, like, spread
out over the week, so we're not having

to do it all at once, but they all
can be bunched up if if scheduling

doesn't allow for them to be spread out.

We'll do some sort of retrieval practice.

So, you know, tell me two things
you remember from what we talked

about yesterday, and then we'll
talk through that a little bit just

to kind of keep that science of
learning piece about retrieval and

re- like calling things that happened.

Sometimes it'll be in the form of a
reading quiz because they had reading due.

And that usually looks like, tell me
about this one kind of more thematic

thing that I want you to think about
as you read, and then tell me what

confused you and why it confused you,
and try to answer your own question.

I don't do quizzes that
are like multiple choice.

quizzes that are looking for
them to have shown they struggled

with the text, the text is.

we have some sort of discussion, activity
work around like visualizing something in

a piece that we're working with character
analysis, and those are usually done,

I seat them all in like little pods.

So they seat in g- groups of four.

And so then that, those look like things
they're doing with their table groups.

Sometimes table groups will work together,
sometimes they'll work separately,

sometimes they're online, sometimes
they're on paper, sometimes they're

getting up, moving around, interacting
with each other, stuff on paper.

Giant sticky notes are my friend.

I love giant sticky notes.

Lindy Hockenbary: Look
what I have right here

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

Oh, no, like the big, like-

Lindy Hockenbary: big.

Lisa Snow: The

Lindy Hockenbary: oh, you like the

Lisa Snow: ones.

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh yeah, I have
those in this closet right here

Lisa Snow: that look like, posters.

Yeah, so we have a bunch of those.

Our English department loves those, and
I often will have a table group, right?

They'll read something, a text, and then
I'll ask them to kind of start thinking

about, as a group what would you…

How would you make a thematic claim,
and then how would you support it?

then they put it up on the walls,
and then the other kids walk around

with the pens and comment or add
ideas or try to give feedback.

So it's almost like a mini peer review of
an outlined essay that's not a full essay.

Or we'll do it with, like, when we read
Frankenstein, we made an argument around

whether Frankenstein is a tragic hero.

So does he have hamartia?

If he has hamartia, it… Do we define
hamartia as a mistake or a flaw?

Because those are very different.

So then we talk a little bit about
what's the difference between mistake

and flaw, and how do we pinpoint
it, because the translation from the

Greek could come… We've always said
fatal flaw hamartia, but the Greek

actually is more around a mistake.

So it's interesting, that tension.

And so then they'll debate
via Post-Its and these big

Post-It notes on the, the walls.

And then sometimes we'll do that
via four corner activities where

the kids are up moving around.

So lots of movement, lots of kids talking
to each other, lots of de-centering me.

Sometimes they'll be doing
mini research projects, getting

ready to do a quick five-minute
presentation of what they researched.

So you'll see me walking around
talking to them as they're researching,

and they're like, "Can I use this?"

And I was like, "Well, that's
the Google AI overview.

So if you wanna use that,
you need to click that.

See that link right there?

That's their source.

So you're gonna go verify that
information in the source." then I

get the kids that are like, "Wait, I
clicked the source, and it looks like

the source is just a blog written by AI."

And I was like, "So can we use that?

not." I was like, "This isn't horrible
information, I don't think, but see if

you can go find it somewhere where a
legit human wrote it." And they're like,

"Okay." So a lot of those conversations
happen kind of organically as I'm walking

around the classroom because I think even
my 12th graders who are 17, 18, they're

not always aware what those links mean
at the bottom of a Wikipedia page or a

Google AI overview or any of those things.

And so the, the more that I can be like,
"Yeah, no, that's the source. That's where

it says it's getting the information,
so go verify it," the more I can do

that as it happens, the more I think
it solidifies for them practices for

a world where you just can't avoid AI.

Lindy Hockenbary: Yep

Lisa Snow: I know it wasn't
one lesson, but that's

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah,
no, I, I, that's great.

Those Google AI summaries are so
problematic in so many ways and I've heard

from a lot of teachers that because of
that, they aren't having their students

research because it is so problematic.

You just gave the perfect
example of a teachable moment,

that we can't get around it.

Doing a Google search is
literally a part of life.

They're there, so let's teach them
that they tend to be riddled with

hallucinations, unfortunately.

Where they sit as of today, in June
2026, that could easily change next week.

They could improve it, but as it
sits today, and teaching them how.

The other thing I've noticed is if you
just look at the summary when it pops

up on the search, it's pretty terrible.

But if you click, it's like show me more
or something like that, and you go to the

page that's just the summary, for whatever
reason, it tends to be a lot better,

and then it has an opportunity for you
to chat with Gemini and ask questions.

And like you said, teaching them
how to then go find the source and

verify it and all of the things,
that's what we have to be doing as

educators with people of all ages.

Instead of just saying, "Oh, this
is here. This is terrible. This is

making them give me terrible sources
and AI slop, and hallucinated AI

slop, so we're not gonna touch it."

Lisa Snow: I mean, and that's
the reality there are adults

making AI crap on the internet.

There are adults who are letting
AI read their emails and then send

emails back, and those emails are,
like, incomprehensible because

they didn't check the work, right?

There are also adults, I think even
in the teaching profession, who

are using AI to help them assess
student work or doing all these other

things, and they're not checking it.

They're not taking ownership of it.

And one of the things that we put in
both our policy for students and policy

for teachers as a school AI is that
you are responsible for any content

that you put your name on, stop.

if you're not checking it, you're
responsible for whatever it says.

And so if you're, if you send something
out that is slop and not correct,

That's how you're presenting yourself.

And so we just have
that conversation a lot.

That doesn't prevent the kids whose
frontal lobes have not fully developed,

from doing what people whose frontal
lobes have fully developed do, right?

They are gonna do it still.

you just… It's like these
constant organic conversations.

Anytime I see a kid in the hall on ChatGPT
because our school hasn't banned entirely

on campus, I just ask why they're there.

What are they doing?

How are they using it?

What are they thinking about?

And a lot of times
they're trying to study.

They're trying to get clarification
when their teacher's not available

because, you know, we're humans and
we can't be in two places at once.

I had a student who was trying to study
for a calculus test, and he was getting

frustrated with ChatGPT because it wasn't
him the process that he learned in class.

It was giving him a different
process, which was then confusing him.

He was 18, so I felt comfortable offering
him a different option because he wasn't

in that age where we're really careful.

At 18 he can make choices about his
own personal identifying information.

but I was like, "Have you tried
NotebookLM?" And he's like "No." And

I said… So I showed it to him and I
said, "You can upload your notes." And

he's like "What?" And I was like, "Do
you have your notes?" And he's like

"Yeah." And I was like, "Well, take
this page of you writing, it in there,

and then ask it to help you with sample
problems based on this process." And he's

like "Okay." And he's like "Oh my gosh.

it's giving me the right problems.

When I walk through the process,
it's showing me the process that I

need to study using my notes, like my
work." And so it's like one of those

things where, you know, if you're
asking the kids, he wasn't trying

to like have it do work for him.

He wasn't using it in the
way that is inappropriate.

But he was getting
frustrated with the reality

Lindy Hockenbary: He
didn't have the right tool,

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

And he

Lindy Hockenbary: and you
gave him a better tool

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

But he didn't know how to use it in
a way that really helped him use it.

So just 'cause he was on ChatGPT
didn't mean he was cheating, right?

Or circumventing his learning.

and so I find just and asking curious
questions, and then not making them

feel… Like I get kids that ask me all
the time when they find out that I'm

the like ed tech AI person on campus.

like, "What, do kids get to use AI
for your class?" And I was like,

"Well, it depends on how, what
they're using it for, and what the

context is, and why." And they're
like, "What?" And I was like, "It's

not a one, it's not a yes or no here.

It's a what are you using

Lindy Hockenbary: It's nuanced.

It's

Lisa Snow: it How are you

Lindy Hockenbary: nuanced.

Yeah

Lisa Snow: the answer is yes.

Sometimes the answer is no.

Sometimes I want your
brain, just your brain.

I don't want anything else.

Sometimes I want you to have
something that pushes you to

think more deeply and brainstorm.

you're doing a review assignment.

You've already read the text.

I'm just asking you to compile a
study sheet for each other because

you've got a test coming up.

So yeah, you can start that draft in AI.

I don't care, 'cause I
know you already read it.

So, and you can verify the information
that you're getting from the AI.

So, like it's always a
depends kind of question.

always a little surprised
when they hear me it depends.

It's not, it's not a yes or no.

But I want you to be thoughtful
and intentional about it,

and not just default AI.

Lindy Hockenbary: Well, my guess is why
they're surprised is that there's so

many teachers in general, but especially
English language arts teachers like

yourself that have taken a absolutely
no AI or going back to paper and pencil.

One, they've taken that extreme end, not
the nuanced it depends, let's land in

the middle and be a centrist perspective.

So I'm sure people are surprised
to hear from you, not only as a

teacher, but as an ELA teacher
especially, and as a high school AP

English teacher to say it depends

Lisa Snow: I think there really is place
for… I mean, 'cause really back, I

don't know, feels like a, a lifetime ago,
but back in 2022 when prompt engineering

was a really big deal, less so now but
with the agentic AI and all the things

that are coming out, but I think still
prompt engineering becomes something

you still wanna be thinking about.

But when that was, like, the big
skill, I started having my kids use

it, use AI image generators on Padlet.

Because it was free essentially and it
didn't collect their data as much, right?

'Cause they didn't have to log in.

But they were using AI image generators
to visualize poetry, like images and

poetry or metaphors and similes, like
the, the two subjects within a metaphor,

the thing that we're describing and the
thing that's being compared to it, right?

I'm not assessing whether they can draw.

I don't care how artistic they are.

So I really want them to be playing
around with how do I an AI to create

an image that I see in my head and
use language to describe what I'm

visualizing to get the visualization
to be created from this text.

And so for me, that was developing
their writing skills and prompt

engineering, but also their ability
to read and think about often poetry.

And they then were playing with AI.

Um And it was kind of developing a reading
skill and a vis- like a writing skill,

but they got to play around with AI to do
it, which they always were like, "What?

We get to use the AI?" I was like, "Yes,
use the AI." But I think that's, you

know, again, where you can't throw the
baby out with the bathwater all the time

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah, that's a great
example of you were using a, an amazing

tool that works super well in school
and classroom learning environments,

Padlet, big fan, and you were teaching
them AI literacy by getting them in

and having them see, like, this is
what AI has the capability of doing.

You're also teaching
media literacy, right?

Because a huge part of media literacy
now is understanding that everything

that you see isn't real, and AI can
really, really trick you in thinking that

something's real when it's AI-generated.

So yeah, yeah, great example.

I love that.

On that note, you've given some, some
good examples of how you're doing no-tech

activities with giant Post-its in your
classroom, and markers and highlighters.

You've gin- given some
good low-tech examples.

You've given some good high-tech
examples, like using AI image generation.

How do you approach tech to support
learning and engagement in your

classroom without it getting in
the way and being a distraction?

What's that line for
you as an ELA teacher?

Lisa Snow: It's not perfect.

And sometimes you do stuff and you're
like, "Crud," like now they're all trying

to watch some sort of anime that they
really wanted to watch from this morning.

Or they're all trying to jump on and do
different homework for a different class.

So it's not perfect.

Our school has a policy around cell
phones where the kids have a cubby

that they have to put the cell
phones in when they walk into class.

And I'm, you know, I don't give them an
actual cubby number, but I tell them at

the start of class when I take attendance,
I'm like, "Hey, there's 15 of you in the

room, and I only have 14 cell phones.

Somebody stick a cell phone in a cubby.

No shame.

Just walk up and stick
it in," and they do.

And I have to be a little bit more
adamant about that the first few weeks

of school to kind of get them to kind

Lindy Hockenbary: Get them in the habit

Lisa Snow: stick it in
there and just move on.

I have a couple kids that keep trying
to bring gaming systems in this year.

So I

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh,

Lisa Snow: kind of

Lindy Hockenbary: like Xboxes?

Lisa Snow: like the little like not the

Lindy Hockenbary: like Nintendo Switches?

Lisa Snow: to the Switch.

Yeah.

Lindy Hockenbary: Interesting

Lisa Snow: them with them.

Yeah They're adorable.

I love them so much.

So

Lindy Hockenbary: They try so hard.

Lisa Snow: and I just would
be like, "Dudes, no thank you.

Not,

Lindy Hockenbary: They try so hard.

Lisa Snow: happening.

No, no." So I just have to be really
aware of those kids and that kind of

stuff and, and be kind of clear about
what is expected and not expected.

I would say my first question whenever
I'm thinking about should we do this on

tech or on paper is kind of thinking about
what's the purpose of the technology.

We have an LMS.

I do a lot of quizzing via the LMS
because it's just easier for me to

grade that way or score that way because

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah.

It's all built in.

Lisa Snow: all built in.

It's

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah

Lisa Snow: s- we're on Canvas,
so it's already in SpeedGrader.

Sometimes when I'm gamifying a reading
activity or a retrieval practice,

we do it on whatever it is now.

Wayground is what it's called I
think now, what Quizzes became.

Lindy Hockenbary: Yep

Lisa Snow: so we do it on Wayground.

Sometimes if we're doing like a quick
retrieval study kind of thing, we'll

do that race to the top activity,
which they think is hilarious.

And, you know, they have a good time
with that, and I get them engaged.

So I will do stuff on tech that way.

But really I could do that on paper.

basically the same idea.

And so it's like I have to really
think through on certain aspects like

why am I using the tech versus is it
tech for tech's sake or is it tech

that I think helps them do better?

Like we do a timeline project with
Frankenstein where they have to take

the monster's story and Frankenstein's
story, which happen simultaneously

but aren't told simultaneously
in the book, layer them together.

they could do that on paper.

It's easier for them to do that on Padlet.

And it actually works a lot
better on Padlet because they

c- have a lot more activity.

They can all be on the same place.

And I suppose you could do it on
Canva too, like a big whiteboard.

what I like on Padlet is
they can move around, right?

They can put all their da- like their
10 events in, and then they can work

with… So I divide them into two teams.

They've got like Team Frankenstein
and Team Monster, and the Monster

ones put all 10 on there, and
the ones put all 10 on there.

And then they have to bring
them together and figure out

when they happen collectively.

And they can drag and drop.

They can move them around.

They can talk and be like, "No, no,
that happens here." "Okay, well, that

happened here," and they can have that
conversation and be moving them around.

For me, that is so much easier
than trying to do that 'cause the

Lindy Hockenbary: With Post-it notes

Lisa Snow: Yeah

Lindy Hockenbary: or index cards.

Yeah.

And then you wa- you only
have 70, maybe 70 minutes.

They don't finish it, then
they come back the next time.

They have to get all, everything back
out, lay it back out again, versus just

logging into Padlet and boom, it's there

Lisa Snow: Yeah, so and then, you
know, I can, I can, with Padlet,

I can really restrict tools or I
can i- you know, add more tools.

So I… It's less distracting
to some extent, too.

so I'll do a lot of that where it's like
I'm really thinking about what's, not just

what's easy for me, or what's flashy and
cool, but also what works well for them.

even when I do seminars, which are kind of
the mainstay of an ELA classroom, I would

say for most of the humanities, seminars
are pretty core, like a Socratic seminar.

I get students who, you know,
they're quieter or they're absent.

And so we will have a no tech
seminar where everybody in

class has their book, they have
themselves, they're just talking.

But I will use a digital recorder, and
I record it, and then I have a back

channel 'cause I divide the class in half.

So I do an A seminar and a B seminar.

And anyone who is in the opposite
seminar is in the classroom listening,

but they have access to the back
channel where they can add ideas

or comments as they're going.

can be like, "Oh, yes, I found that
quote that they couldn't find. It's on

this page." And they can post it in a
back channel, which is all in Canvas.

I do it as a Canvas discussion.

And then any kid who's absent, they have
a recording of both seminars, and they

can still participate by listening to
the seminar and offering their ideas.

Because I think the other thing
with seminars is, is when kids

are absent, they're often left
out of the participation points

for that day or whatever, and
that can be a little frustrating.

so this still holds them accountable
for participating in some capacity,

and engaging with the discussion that
we had, even if they weren't in class.

So I just try to be really thoughtful
about… guess my, my big thing

as a teacher is just to always be
thoughtful and intentional with what

I'm choosing to do, and I have my
days where I'm not thoughtful and

intentional, or I'm not as thoughtful and

Lindy Hockenbary: Everybody does

Lisa Snow: would like to be.

there are days where I'm like, "Ah,
we're watching the new Frankenstein

movie," because you're all second
semester seniors who have checked out

after the AP test, and you're tired,
and you just need a day to just be, and

you're all 18 at this point, so fine.

Lindy Hockenbary: But hey, you know,
that can be super purposeful too,

because there are kids in your class
that could pick up things from the

movie that they didn't pick up from
reading, or maybe make connections.

Maybe they needed that visual of the
movie to make a connection that they

didn't make when they were reading
the book, that multimodal experience

Lisa Snow: yeah, and it's funny too with,
with the new one, the oh gosh, I always

wanna say Benicio del Toro, but that's
not the last name of the of the that's

not, that's the actor, not the director

Lindy Hockenbary: I know who you're
talking about, but I can't come up with

it either and I'll have to Google it

Lisa Snow: some point.

But with the new one,
it's very not the book.

I mean, it is, but it's also not
in, in a lot of very clear ways.

thematically, I think it does a really
nice job, and it's beautifully done film.

But I had kids, we were watching it, and
one of them's "Wait, Elizabeth is his s-

adopted sister that he's known from birth.

What the heck?" And I was like, "Yes,
Elizabeth is in the film, but she's

not the same Elizabeth as the book."

And they're like, "This is weird."

Lindy Hockenbary: Del Toro.

That's the director, Del Toro

Lisa Snow: but it's not Benicio.

His first name is

Lindy Hockenbary: Guillermo?

Guillermo

Lisa Snow: Thank you.

Yes.

I keep… Benicio

Lindy Hockenbary: wrap,

Lisa Snow: actor, Guillermo is the

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah

Lisa Snow: Yes, thank you.

I knew that was not correct,
but I had the correct last name.

Yay.

Lindy Hockenbary: But you know, you're
giving the perfect example of a-

another learning opportunity there to
talk about different interpretations

of the novel in different mediums,

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

Lindy Hockenbary: you

Lisa Snow: Yes.

Lindy Hockenbary: And artistic
creation, artistic individuality

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

I mean, we had conversations with it,
but I have days like that too where

I'm just like, "Hey, I'm feeling like
we're a little behind on our reading.

Let's have a reading catch-up day.

just, we're gonna read all day." And
they're like, "Okay." know, 'cause it,

sometimes you just, you- a school year is
long, and it is, it is a marathon sprint.

So you get exhausted pretty
fast, and I think there's

just space for that sometimes.

And then the kids also, they love
it's always a little weird for

them when I'm like, "We're not
using your computers at all today.

Don't even get them out." And they're
like, "What?" But then they kind of

are like, "Oh, this is kinda nice."

You know, I'm not feeling like I'm…
You know, 'cause they use tech in so many

classes on so many things 'cause we have a
digital notebook program that the kids use

for a lot of classes where they're doing
a lot, like their math homework is almost

entirely on this on OneNote essentially,

Lindy Hockenbary: was
gonna ask, is it one no?

Okay.

Yeah.

Lisa Snow: product,

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah

Lisa Snow: And so I don't
use OneNote anymore.

I used to.

I use Kami now for annotations
of smaller works because I

can integrate it with Canvas.

And it, it works basically the same way.

A lot of our math program uses OneNote,
and so the kids are constantly on

OneNote with their notes, with their
homework, with all of these things.

So constantly on screens at school, and
I think it's really refreshing for them.

I think this is partially why
the kids really like like science

labs when they do the labs because
they're, like, doing something that's

hands-on and not on a computer.

They're literally open something
or dissecting something or watching

for a chemical reaction or when they
can go and do a walk your talk or a

four corners activity where they're
talking to each other and debating

but there's no screens anywhere.

I mean, the kids really like it and
I think it's a refreshing difference.

And so I think the more that kind
of reality happens for them, I

think th- that it's, it's good.

It's good to have built

Lindy Hockenbary: just gave such
great examples of how lumping

everything and calling it screen
time is missing so many nuanced

perspectives of how you use technology.

You gave the example of
building a Padlet timeline.

You gave the example of
using OneNote for math.

OneNote's great for math, by the way,
if any math teachers are listening.

You gave the example of
watching the movie Frankenstein.

All three of those are very, very,
very different uses of screen time

and devices And very different than
students scrolling YouTube Shorts or

TikTok or so any social media platform
on their phone, but the current

conversation is lumping that all together
and saying that all of that is bad.

What are your thoughts on that?

Lisa Snow: There's a couple questions I
usually ask, 'cause I have an 11-year-old.

His summer rule, which is why he popped
in before we started recording and was

asking can he do something, is technically
he's not allowed… Like he gets up

earlier than we do, 'cause he likes
his alone time in the morning, he says.

but then the minute I get up and come
downstairs, he's not allowed games,

YouTube, anything until after noon,
and he has three things he has to do

before that, and he's not allowed to
ask for, for screen time before noon

unless he… Before noon, and he's not
allowed to ask even if it's after noon

if he hasn't done the three things.

and if he asks, and it's a- it's before
noon, and he hasn't done the three things,

he doesn't get it for the rest of the
day, and then we start again the next day.

Which I did not invent.

My director of curriculum and instruction,
who is a very good friend of mine and also

a wonderful parent who is careful about
screens with her kids that was her system.

But it's been working really nice,
you know, because we have a screen

time battle constantly, right?

And often will say, "We're different, Mom.

I'm not the same as you.

, I use screens 'cause
it helps me like down.

It helps me decompress.

It helps me connect with my friends."
And he's not on social media.

He doesn't have a smartphone.

He has a watch.

So he has group chats, and

Lindy Hockenbary: Okay, I was
gonna say, so yeah, so how is

he connecting with friends?

Like text messaging?

Lisa Snow: Fortnite,

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh, 40.

Lisa Snow: they can talk

Lindy Hockenbary: Okay.

Lisa Snow: when they play,

Lindy Hockenbary: Okay.

Yep

Lisa Snow: decided, you know, is
kind of just the same thing over

and over and over again, so he's
kind of off Fortnite right now.

Lindy Hockenbary: Mm-hmm.

Lisa Snow: But they'll get on and play
Minecraft together, and they can all

connect and talk while they're playing

they'll chat with each other
while they're playing together.

You know, he and his, one of his friends
who used to live right near us would

meet in the park to play Pokemon Go.

But they would be on screens
playing Pokemon Go, but together,

and so it was a way to connect.

So he constantly reminds me that my
understanding of screen versus his

understanding of screen is different.

So I think that's the first thing
that I always wanna kinda think

about, is what's the screen for?

What's the screen mean to
that kid or that student?

do I see harm or do I see help, right?

Connecting with his friends when we go
to a private… I teach at a private

school, and he goes to school with me,
'cause I get discounts, and so I'm, you

Lindy Hockenbary: Yay,
teacher discounts on tuition

Lisa Snow: on tuition, right?

So, you know, a lot of his friends
don't live in the neighborhood.

He can't just run outside and
go play with friends all the

Lindy Hockenbary: Yep

Lisa Snow: So he can connect with
them over lo- longer distances via

video games and screens, right?

The other conversation I have
with him often is is this active?

And this is the same thing I
think about with my students.

Is this an active engagement
or a passive engagement?

When he sits and just watches some
YouTube Shorts That is passive.

And I want him to be thinking about…
And he's got he, he, you can tell he's

my kid, 'cause he's "Mom, this is so AI
generated, this is ridiculous." And so

we look at it, and I'm like, "Oh, it's
about right." 'Cause I constantly have

these conversations with him about well,
everything on YouTube is not accurate.

It's not true.

He's like "Mom, did you know
blah, blah, blah?" And I'm

like, "Yeah, you verify that?

Because that does not sound right." He's
like "Well, that's, this person said

on YouTube." And I was like, "Yep, yep.

Go verify it.

Figure out if you can find the
answer." And he's like "Okay." Uh

But like you can tell he's my kid
'cause we have those conversations.

But he knows that YouTube, you know,
is just this passive consumption.

he's playing MLB The Show on, which is
one of his favorites, he's currently

into the World Cup, so he also
plays the soccer, FIFA video game.

That's a lot more active, right?

He's thinking, he's strategizing,
he's getting frustrated and

working on emotional regulation.

There's a lot that he's doing
there that's more active, And

so I think that's a difference
that you wanna be thinking about.

I think doom scrolling social media, I
would say limit the crud out of that.

Constantly absorbing YouTube Shorts
TikTok videos, like- Like we need some,

some limitations on that to some extent.

But I think engaging with even watching
a movie with family and talking

through that, or watching a movie at
school and talking through that even

looking at YouTube videos that are
thoughtful and we're engaging with them

and having discussions around them,
playing games with friends online.

I mean, I don't think we should
stop eating and stay in our room

for 24 hours, like that kind of
stereotypical like World of Warcraft

guy in like the early aughts, right?

Which may or may not have
fully existed all the time.

I feel like that's more problematic,
but I feel like the kids are

using screens differently.

And sometimes when my son is feeling
sad or his emotions are heightened

because he's got ADHD, and that emotional
regulation piece is challenging, watching

a few YouTube videos or like some gamer
who's doing a walkthrough on YouTube,

like calms him down, and it like lets
him kind of tamp out for a second to

come back and feel more regulated.

So I think there's just
different realities for our

kids than there used to be.

And yes, we shouldn't just sit in
front of the TV all the time, but

how many teach- how many parents
and adults do that all the time?

There's a reason why we have
this like mass consumption of

what is it, what is it called?

Binge-watching, right?

Lindy Hockenbary: Yep.

Lisa Snow: And

Lindy Hockenbary: Streaming
services allow you to do that now.

Just watch one episode after
another, after another, after

another, you watch the whole series

Lisa Snow: Yes.

Yeah.

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah

Lisa Snow: you know, I think
we're all guilty of that, and

there's a time and a place for it.

Do you… Should you be
binge-watching your entire life?

No.

But at the end of a school year,
those first couple days when I'm

home from having taught for a full
school year, yes, I'm sitting in

front of the TV, and I am vegging

Lindy Hockenbary: Shutting off your brain.

Yep.

Lisa Snow: I don't even know, what is it?

They call it couch rot now.

I,

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah

Lisa Snow: vegging, but,
a vegetable on the couch.

But yeah, couch rot away.

You've earned it.

Lindy Hockenbary: Your body and your mind
need it sometimes to just relax, check out

Lisa Snow: my kids, at least, in a
private school in the Seattle area

where we've got very affluent families,
not everyone, but a lot, and very

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah

Lisa Snow: kids who are involved in
everything, whose sports practices

sometimes don't start till 7:00 PM,
and they get home at 10:30, right?

And they've had a full day of school,
and sports, and music, and all the

other things they're involved in.

They get tired, and there are
just times where they need to They

need to rot for a second and, and,
you know, turn that brain off.

And that's, you know, neuroscient- I
remember there was a neuroscientist that

said kids and humans need to stare into
space and be bored and just completely

staring off into space for, you know,
20 to 30 minutes a day at least, just

because it lets our brain calm itself.

It lets our brain think creatively.

It, it's good neurologically for us.

And so I think sometimes we forget
that in kind of our… I'm, so I often

am worried more about overscheduling
than I am about screen time.

So I don't know

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah,
from a parent perspective.

Yeah.

And then we wonder why these kids are
scrolling TikTok or YouTube Shorts or

other social media platforms or looking
at Snapchat stories, 'cause that's

potentially, not always, but, but
potentially is their binge watch, their

way of letting their brain check out.

Whether that's a good or a bad
thing, it looks different than adults

couch rotting to shut your brain
off and let your mind and body rest.

Yeah, that's interesting.

You just gave so many more great
examples of how it-- this is

such a nuanced conversation.

It depends on what you're doing.

It also depends, like you said,
on the person and what they're

doing on that screen, what they
need to do to regulate themselves.

It might involve some type of
screen or device or tech use,

whatever it may be called.

If there were to be Washington State
or your district were to set some

kind of screen time restriction
saying you-- and everything is lumped

under the same category, like we can
only use it X amount of minutes per

day or per week, what effect would
that have, both positive, negative,

on your classroom and your school?

'Cause you're working with other
teachers on tech integration as well.

Lisa Snow: Well, so we're a one-to-one
school, so every kid's required to

buy either a Surface or a laptop.

And we tell them which ones

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh, so it's
like BYOD, so they have to bring

Lisa Snow: No.

We have two they purchase,

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh, okay.

Lisa Snow: they own.

Lindy Hockenbary: laptop or a Surface.

Lisa Snow: Yes.

Lindy Hockenbary: Okay

Lisa Snow: Provision it, like the,
our IT department provisions all

Lindy Hockenbary: I don't know

Lisa Snow: all set.

They're on our like, Azure client
and all that kind of stuff.

But the kids technically own
the laptop or the Surface.

And so they bring that
to school every day.

So having restrictions on that would then
raise a big question, I think, around

what does it mean to be one-to-one?

Why are we having them purchase this?

As someone who is a parent just had to
buy one last year they aren't cheap.

Lindy Hockenbary: Yeah.

Lisa Snow: The warranty is very nice on
the laptop, so I just dropped my son's

off for a summer refresh where they'll
kind of fix any damage or anything, and

it's, it's free because it's warrantied.

so I think our school does a really
nice job with the warranty, but I think

it would just raise an interesting
question around Why one-to-one?

Why do we have all these laptops?

Why did we move to every student
with a laptop versus a COW?

We used to call them COWs,
like computers on wheels.

Lindy Hockenbary: Mm-hmm.

Lisa Snow: and they all had very funny
COW names, like Bessie and Dolly.

But yeah.

But I think there's also… I mean,
I teach at a private school, so we

have, generally speaking, a much
more affluent clientele than, I would

say, your average public school.

But even in, in the area I teach, the
private-- the public schools, there's very

affluent with families that have a lot of
to technology and those technology skills.

I mean, I'm literally in Seattle,
so, Google, Microsoft, Amazon.

I mean,

Lindy Hockenbary: yeah

Lisa Snow: I mean, I think
it's probably second only to

Silicon Valley in terms of tech,

Lindy Hockenbary: For sure

Lisa Snow: tech in, in the US.

W- but we also have families that
don't have Wi-Fi at home, who don't

have separate compu- like, the
only computer the kid has is the

one they had to get for school.

We have kids who are on, you
know, really big scholarships who

have things that are subsidized.

And for them, this is the only time
they get as much of this exposure

to like, positive tech use versus
doom scrolling on your phone.

And so I think the more that schools be
intentional about tech use and screen

use so that kids are getting positive
understanding of how to use these

tools, how to be healthy with them.

You know, I have conversations with
my students about notifications

on their phones every year which
is just mind-blowing to them.

I'm like, "You realize you're
the human and it's the computer,

right?" And they're like, "What?"
And I was like, "You can turn

Lindy Hockenbary: You can turn it off

Lisa Snow: off on your phone."
And they're like, "What?

These, these little buttons annoy the crud
out of me." I was like, "Yeah, me too."

Lindy Hockenbary: No, and nobody's ever
showed them how to turn off notifications

Lisa Snow: No.

A lot of the time it has, they haven't.

So I tell them, and then, and
I tell them about focus apps.

I'm like, "If you wanna spend a couple
bucks, Forest is a great focus app.

You can build a tree, and it forces you
to focus and not look at your phone."

And they're like, "What?" And they just
like, look so amazed that there are

these, these built-in tools that they
can use that, that don't cloud them

with the clutter of all of these push
notifications, banner notifications,

buttons, all of those badges and things
And I'm like, "Just turn off all the

things, and then if there's something
that you miss, turn it back on." You also

can pick which notifications you get.

So if you don't want those stupid little
numbers in the top corner for how many

emails you have, turn that off, and then
you can still click and check your email.

I mean, I don't… My
work email is on my phone.

It does not notify me ever my phone

Lindy Hockenbary: Oh my gosh, that would
drive me absolutely bonkers if I got any

type of email notification on my phone

Lisa Snow: I mean, my Gmail, my personal
email, it will, but my work email, no.

I have to actively go in and choose
to look at my work email because

I don't want to be notified at
9:30 PM that someone emailed me

because frankly, that will keep.

that's the other thing I tell students.

I'm like, "A lot of these notifications,
they're, they're there to trigger you

to engage because the goal is eyes on
the screen." So if you aren't bombarded

with all that noise, then you can be
more intentional about using things

effectively and, and thoughtful and in,
in making your own personal choices.

And I think that's the number one thing
we want kids to be doing is learning

how to be adults who make choices for
themselves that are healthy and, positive.

And I think what's happening with kids is
that they're not… Those conversations

around you're the human and it's the
computer aren't happening as organically.

'Cause you can give them a lecture
on all of the personally identifying

information, intellectual property
social media is unhealthy that you want.

They're not gonna absorb that unless
you're having an organic conversation

with them about their thoughts, right?

And, and engaging them with kind of that
you're in h- and I would say younger,

the younger kids it's harder, but
by the time they're in middle school

and high school, you can have these
conversations with this, the kids.

And you can have conversations around
you know, when my kid gets upset about

screen time, I'm like, "Dude, time
you are kind of starting to obsess

over a video game, you're going down
this obsession rabbit hole. This is

what I see you doing. This is why I'm
limiting you because I don't want this."

And we can have that conversation.

And I think that's, the more that
that is happening both at home and

at school, I think the better it is.

And so if we just say no screens period,
then I think it's gonna, it's gonna

limit those conversational moments.

And I think,

Lindy Hockenbary: moments.

Those teachable moments

Lisa Snow: I think phones,
smartphones and social media

are different than laptops too.

And so I think there is really
a place to differentiate, right?

Some schools are on iPads, some
co- schools are on Surfaces.

We have laptops as well.

But I think that even as an adult, my
laptop is very different than my phone.

It's a lot easier to get sucked
into mindless scrolling on

my phone it is on my laptop.

And so I think even just having, saying
all screen is gonna be problematic.

think we, it, there needs to be nuance.

Th- they're just, we
can't say, "Yes, all bad.

Kids are anxious.

Screens make them anxious.

All bad." I don't even think
Jonathan Haidt is saying that.

I heard him interviewed on Hard Fork when
that Anxious Generation book came out.

Lindy Hockenbary: Hmm

Lisa Snow: don't even think that he
was saying all screen's bad all time.

Lindy Hockenbary: Hmm

Lisa Snow: He was differentiating between
the doom scrolling, social media, mindless

absorption versus engagement with a
screen, like watching TV with parents

or having conversations around things.

He was differentiating.

I think popular media then goes,
"Bad," a- and then we lose the nuance.

But I even think the author of some
of these conversations wouldn't

even say throw everything out

Lindy Hockenbary: Interesting so every
time I post a clip from a podcast

that, from this podcast on TikTok
especially, where we're talking about,

you know, is banning cell phones the
right thing, or talking about the screen

time debate or something like that,
usually it has to do with cell phones.

I get bombarded with comments
saying, "That is not a teacher's job.

It's not a teacher's job to teach kids
how to use their smartphones correctly.

That's a parent's job." You just gave
an example of how you are teaching them

things like, "Hey, did you know you can
turn your notifications off?" "Oh, wait,

no, I didn't know that." So what are
your, what are your response to that?

As a high school English teacher
and someone that works in a high

school, what's your response to
those people that are saying, "Our

teachers are overwhelmed already.

This is not their job to teach
students how to use technology

responsibly and healthily." Healthily?

Is that a word?

Healthily?

Healthy?

Health- healthily?

Lisa Snow: Healthfully?

Healthfully.

I think healthfully

Lindy Hockenbary: Healthily.

We'll go with that.

The English teacher's saying
healthily, we'll go with that.

I like to make up words, so there you go

Lisa Snow: it's okay.

English is an organic living language,
so words get made up all the time.

I mean, rizz didn't exist

Lindy Hockenbary: That

Lisa Snow: two years ago.

Lindy Hockenbary: it's, it's a good

Lisa Snow: yeah.

So, mean, I don't disagree.

I do think it's the pa- job.

But I don't know that all of our
parents feel equipped to have these

conversations, have the time and
bandwidth to have these conversations,

are actually having these conversations.

I think we're all kind of
subjected to, right, this,

the doom scrolling temptation.

I'm guilty too.

Sometimes I'll be like, "Man, where
did the last 20 minutes go? Oh, crud,

I looked at Instagram, and I lost 20
minutes of my life because I just kept

scrolling." I mean, we all do it, right?

And so those kinds of intentional
conversations, there is so much noise

for parents right now, just as much
noise as there is for teachers, and

a lot of teachers are parents, so
then you get the double noise, right?

So I feel like hate the phrase,
and I'm gonna say it, but I hate

it, "it takes a village," right?

I mean, what is our village anymore?

We're so disconnected from
that idea of a community space.

It does.

And while it is not my first job to
teach children how to use their phones

appropriately- It impacts them as a
whole person, and it is my j- like,

the point of education and the point
of compulsory education as we see it

in a democratic society is to create
citizens are capable, thoughtful,

engaged critical thinkers who can
participate in democracy in a healthy way.

So I'm teaching them English.

Literature does this beautifully.

Teaches them to think about the world
from a different perspective, to hear

from other voices, to consider other
ideas, to ask important questions,

to recognize that there's nuance and
difference in the world, that there's

value in your intrinsic humanity.

All of that's coming from literature.

You can get it in a lot of disciplines,
but essentially literature teaches that.

beauty, it teaches wonder,
imagination, right?

All of those are about literature,
but they're also about being

a full person, a whole human.

And I think this is why I enjoy teaching
where I teach at a Catholic school where

that is kind of an undergirding idea.

but I think it's the heart of all
education, public, private, right?

The idea is that we are molding
humans, and that is both a parental

job and an we've, we've also said
that part of that is this idea of,

of compulsory education from K to 12.

To mold humans.

This is why we have
discipline expectations.

This is why we have, you know,
conversations with kids around

choices that they make where they
make mistakes, like they decide

they wanna vape in the bathroom.

This isn't about being punitive, it's
about talking to them about their health.

And they're… Like, this is why we limit
when kids can smoke, when kids can drink.

Those all- those limitations aren't
necessarily about just being punitive,

about helping people grow into full
functioning members of our democracy.

so, yes, it's the parent's job, but
I think it is also a teacher's place.

they're partners with
children in their education.

They're partners with parents
of minor children in education.

We're not just one isolated silo.

We're all a team, and I would love to see
us work collaboratively with every kid.

Some parents are better
about that than others.

Some teachers are better
about that than others.

Some school districts and
school administrators are

better about than others.

But ideally, all on the same team,
and we're all trying to support

this little burgeoning human to
becoming a good person, right?

Lindy Hockenbary: Super well said.

I, I have very similar thoughts on it.

One of the things that I try to stress to
people that I'm not sure a lot of people

have really ever stopped to think about.

You said that the purpose and goal
of formal education is to create

productive members of society that
can participate in our democracy.

Where do most people get their
information of who they're, what

candidates they're gonna vote for?

Social media

Lisa Snow: yeah.

Well, and I would say right now my husband
actually said to me, was it yesterday?

I don't know.

Within the last week, my husband's
"I don't think anybody our generation

or younger watches the news anymore."

Lindy Hockenbary: No.

Lisa Snow: like, "Yeah, no.

Who watches the

Lindy Hockenbary: I have this
conversation with people all the time.

It, it, it becomes incredibly obvious
to me when I either go visit my

grandparents or they come visit me.

My grandma will be 90 in August.

My grandpa just turned 87, and from
s- as long as I can remember, they,

in the evening, they watch the…
Is it the 5:00 news, I believe?

It's 5 or 5:30 news, maybe 6:00 news,
whatever it is, and they watch Jeopardy!

and Wheel of Fortune.

And they still to this day…
So when they, when I go to

their house, that's the routine.

You sit, and you actually watch
the news, and last time my husband

and I were there, we were both
kind of like, "News? What's news?"

And then when they come here, we
don't even have live TV, so it's

always a struggle when that 5:00 hits.

My grandpa's "News.

Where's the news?

Gotta turn on the TV.

Where's the news?" 'Cause it's an
87-year-old habit of his, right?

And we, we have to figure out
how to get to even the live TV on

our TV because we don't do that.

Yeah.

So most people, even our age, I
think we're about the same age.

I'm an elder millennial.

We get our new- I get my news
from social media, I'll admit.

Different social media channels,
but now I'm watching my, my favorite

morning routine now is while I'm
getting ready in the morning in the

bathroom, putting on my makeup, brushing
my hair, I open my phone, I open

TikTok, and I go to PBS News Channel.

And they have these really good
anywhere from a minute to several-minute

clips from their PBS news hours,
and it's fantastic way to get caught

up on the previous day's news.

It just happens to be
through the medium of TikTok.

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

When I'm driving, so like during my
commute usually Ewan's in the car,

my son, 'cause he commutes with me
now, he likes to listen to music.

But sometimes I force him
to listen to podcasts.

And so I'll listen to like,
Up First uh, from NPR,

Lindy Hockenbary: Yep

Lisa Snow: The Daily
from The New York Times.

I like Hard Fork which I'm often…
Like, it's helping me keep up

with tech stuff, plus it's funny.

But then, and then, you know,
Wait Wait… Don't Tell Me!

on Saturday mornings we'll
listen to because it's funny, but

it's also the news of the week.

and then, you know, stuff
pops up on Instagram.

I'm not on TikTok.

Haven't, I haven't
drank that Kool-Aid yet.

I'm still fighting, against it.

Short-form videos, I, I'm not
sure I totally understand.

I like funny reels, but I haven't gotten

Lindy Hockenbary: it

Lisa Snow: Informational reels yet.

But if I see something on media,
I'll often go to the app of The New

York Times or Seattle Times, which
is kind of our local newspaper.

Or I'll gooc- like, CNN or, you
know, kind of things, or, and I'll

Google for something about it.

But yeah, I don't… My m- my mom,
who's in her mid-70s is an avid news

watcher, and my son was there their
house a couple days, and all he

wanted to do was watch the World Cup.

And so when he was gone, she was finally
like, "I can watch the news again."

And I was like, watches the
news?" But she does, religiously.

Every day at 5:00, she watches the news,
and she has her favorite news channel.

but I j- I just feel like it's, you
know, anybody, I think, under the

age of 50 is not watching the news.

They maybe read the newspaper if
they're kind of someone who enjoys that.

But for the most part, the, the
TV news is, is all in snippets,

that's consumed on social media.

Lindy Hockenbary: So yeah, considering
that, like I just can't … I

know, I know I'm in schools all
the time, I'm in classrooms.

I know teachers are more than overwhelmed.

You're burdened with so
many things, I know it.

But I can't, I can't get my mind wrapped
around the thing that gets cut is

technology and teaching the healthy and
responsible use of it at the same time

that we're having a conversation about
the fact that it's unhealthy and issues

that it's causing, and knowing that most
people are getting their, especially

voting decisions, from social media.

Lisa Snow: Yep

Lindy Hockenbary: that's literally
the basis of our democracy.

Of all things that can be cut, why
is that the thing that is on the

top of the chopping block right now?

I just have a really hard time with that.

I don't disagree that there are
things that need to be taken

off of a teacher's plate, 100%.

Think for the sake of humanity,
that technology can't be

that thing that's taken off.

It's gotta be something else.

I know way too much about how this
technology works, and I know way

too much about how these big, huge
billion-dollar businesses that

control our society, let's be honest,
control our government, operate.

So why would we take that out of
formal education and just not educate

people about addictive algorithms?

And you, you said something really
great earlier about how understanding

that this is meant to suck you in.

Depending upon the app that you're using,
but if it's likely a social media app,

it's been developed to suck you in.

Why would we take that off and
why would we not have that,

that conversation with students?

Lisa Snow: Yeah.

I think sometimes, and maybe it's 'cause
my brain just, I also, I think I'm

undiagnosed, so is probably not accurate.

But I also, having a child with
ADHD, see mirrors of my brain in his

Lindy Hockenbary: It's phonetic

Lisa Snow: Yeah, so I'm pretty sure
that I also have it, but I'm like

the high functioning girl ADHD.

So you know, I learned to mask it
really young and figure it out.

So but- my brain shifts really fast.

That's just, it's just a part of my brain.

So I understand that as a teacher, I
can downshift pretty quickly organic

conversations about tact and other
things, and I understand not everybody

does that well and is comfortable with
that kind of rapid movement of topic.

So I get that.

There's everybody's a different
personality, and think can, can be some

of the fear is, you know, I have to take
attendance, I have to grade and score,

I have to, you know, care about whether
their emotional health is, is healthy,

and watch for signs of, you know, neglect,
abuse, you know, suicidal ideation, all

of those kinds of emotional things that
we all are watching for as teachers

constantly because we care deeply about
our students because no one would go into

teaching if they didn't love students.

It's just not worth it.

The money is not worth it.

It's hard and challenging, and we're
worried about content, and the content

g- it's getting more complicated, and
the kids, and discipline and all of the

things that they start bringing into our
classroom that are challenging, right?

So th- there's so much to be
thinking about that's overwhelming.

I, I get it.

But I think those organic conversations
about a good person being a healthy

person, whatever those look are
essential, and they do present themselves.

There's space in, in not formally
providing lessons, but in

relationships with your students
that offer those moments, right?

And I think if we're just taking
opportunities at those moments to

have these conversations, it's, it's
worthwhile, and it isn't huge…

I don't think it's a huge ask.

have to be every kid in your
room with a formal lesson.

But if all of us are having those organic
conversations with students as they

come up, and taking those opportunities,
then, then we should be able to

talk to most of our students, right?

Because I think as a school, we're always,
at least my school, trying to think

about who in our building have a trusted
adult to go to if they need it, right?

We are constantly thinking through,
"Here's our roster of kids." know,

want every kid to have an adult
that they feel comfortable with

coming to if there's some need.

and we actually think through like, who
doesn't, and how can we connect with

those kids and really give them the
opportunity to feel Like they belong

and they're valued and they're, we're
intentionally seeing them as a person.

do think that's hugely a part
of our jobs as, as schools.

I

Lindy Hockenbary: Agree.

Lisa Snow: that's too much

Lindy Hockenbary: No, I agree.

All right.

How can listeners connect with you?

Lisa Snow: It's so funny, I'm like the
most analog tech person on the planet.

I have a paper calendar.

I guess maybe my LinkedIn is
probably my better option.

Lindy Hockenbary: Okay, great.

Yeah.

Lisa Snow, LinkedIn.

We'll put a link in
the show note for that.

Awesome.

We end every episode with
a Make a Tech 100 moment.

This is just the last thought
that you wanna leave people with

Lisa Snow: Be intentional.

I know that's more work.

I know that's hard always.

And we, we fall short.

We're humans.

We F up.

That's what we do.

That's by definition, I always tell
my students, you're making mistakes,

you're perfectly human, so you get to be

Lindy Hockenbary: odd creatures

Lisa Snow: Yeah, you're…
Yeah, you're human.

Y- that's what we do.

We make mistakes.

Nobody's perfect.

and you are perfectly human if you
make mistakes, so now you're perfect.

Yay.

'Cause that's what my students all
struggle with, which is perfectionism.

But thinking about what you're doing
before you do it is really important in a

classroom, especially when we're talking
about technology, screens, growing young

people into, you know, participants in
democracies that we want to see who are

critical thinkers and, and thoughtful
engagers in culture who are gonna

build the world that we wanna live in.

The… we can't be mindless.

We can't just go into rote.

We have to be intentional as
educators, even though it's hard, and

I think most of us want to do that.

I think it's always just a nice reminder
to be… Like, because Sam Altman says

that AI is inevitable doesn't mean the
way he sees AI has to be inevitable.

because Mark Zuckerberg says Instagram's
the best tool, you know, for connecting

people out there or, you know, Threads
or whatever his Twitter alternative

is is the best option, and we can't
do it without these ads and this

algorithm doesn't mean that's right.

So you don't have to take th-
what they say at face value.

You can push back.

You can think critically.

You can be intentional.

Just because they say this is how
it should be used doesn't mean

that's the best thing for you
or your students or your kids.

so I guess intention

Lindy Hockenbary: Love it.

Thank you, Lisa, for joining
us and spending time on

your summer break sharing.

I appreciate you

Lisa Snow: Of course.

Thank you for having me.

It's been fun.

Thanks for joining Make EdTech 100.

I know educator time is valuable, and I'm
honored you choose to spend yours with me.

For more EdTech strategies you can use
tomorrow and ways to bring me to your

school or event, head to LindyHoc.com.

If this episode resonated, hit subscribe
so you don't miss the next one.

I'm Lindy Hoc.

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